Discussion:
interfering tfms
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Bob Tennent
2018-01-24 01:42:10 UTC
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A user has complained that the tgothic fonts aren't working:

https://tex.stackexchange.com/questions/410965

It seems the ptex-fonts package includes tfms that interfere
with constructing tfms from the bookhands sources.

I got the latter working by forcing removal of the
ptex-fonts package. Is there a better way?

Bob T.
Norbert Preining
2018-01-24 02:41:39 UTC
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Post by Bob Tennent
It seems the ptex-fonts package includes tfms that interfere
with constructing tfms from the bookhands sources.
I opened an issue with the Japanese TeX Developer Community
https://github.com/texjporg/ptex-fonts/issues/2

Best

Norbert

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Hironobu Yamashita
2018-01-24 03:14:26 UTC
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Hi,

I'm one of the maintainers of ptex-fonts, Japanesee TeX Development Community
We _cannot_ change the font name, as "tgoth10,tfm" has been existed since 1980s,
and almost all of Japanese classees and packages assume it exists.
Also, "tgoth10.tfm" is a default pTeX / pLaTeX font used in both formats.

The possibility is that restricting the search path (TEXINPUTS?)
for Japanese tgoth10,tfm for pTeX-related formats in texmf.cnf
in the TeX Live distribution side. Is it possible?

----
Hironobu Yamashita
Post by Norbert Preining
Post by Bob Tennent
It seems the ptex-fonts package includes tfms that interfere
with constructing tfms from the bookhands sources.
I opened an issue with the Japanese TeX Developer Community
https://github.com/texjporg/ptex-fonts/issues/2
Best
Norbert
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Norbert Preining
2018-01-24 04:22:12 UTC
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HI Bob, Hironobu,
Post by Hironobu Yamashita
We _cannot_ change the font name, as "tgoth10,tfm" has been existed since 1980s,
Indeed, and already in 2011 Karl realized that and stated it clearly:
https://www.tug.org/pipermail/tex-live/2011-August/030031.html

The user on sx used files that are NOT provided by TeX Live and was
suprised that there was a conflict.

I agree with Karl that tgothic package should change the font names,
which is far easier than changing a range of several TeX engines and
support document.

Thanks

Norbert

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Reinhard Kotucha
2018-01-25 01:26:50 UTC
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Post by Norbert Preining
I agree with Karl that tgothic package should change the font
names, which is far easier than changing a range of several TeX
engines and support document.
LaTeX users usually include a macro package in order to select a font.
In this case the actual names of .tfm files can be changed at any time
if the macro packages are adapted accordingly.

The problem is plain TeX. TeX's \font primitive expects basenames
of .tfm file as arguments, for instance

\font cmr10

loads cmr10.tfm .

Renamed TFM files break existing documents.

There is no simple solution. If the names of the Japanese .tfm files
are changed, it might be possible to re-define the \font primitive in
p[la]tex format files in order to preserve backwards compatibility.

What I can imagine is that the p[la]tex format files contain lookup
tables which map "tgoth10[.tfm]" to "ptex_tgoth10[.tfm]", for
instance. This is probably a reasonable approach if not too many
fonts are concerned.

Since TeX is not the most comfortable programming language, I'm aware
that all this is easier said than done.

Regards,
Reinhard
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Norbert Preining
2018-01-25 04:43:50 UTC
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Hi Reinhard,
Post by Reinhard Kotucha
The problem is plain TeX. TeX's \font primitive expects basenames
of .tfm file as arguments, for instance
Yes of course, but since the tgoth10.tfm of the tgothic package have
never been part of TeX Live I am more than indifferent against this
problem.
Post by Reinhard Kotucha
Renamed TFM files break existing documents.
Not in this case, because it would have been broken from the very
beginning using the wrong tfms.
Post by Reinhard Kotucha
There is no simple solution. If the names of the Japanese .tfm files
are changed, it might be possible to re-define the \font primitive in
p[la]tex format files in order to preserve backwards compatibility.
This would break far more documents, than you could imagine, and it
would be break with what is currently in TeX Live.

I will upload a new tgothic package with the posted changes.

Best

Norbert

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Bob Tennent
2018-01-24 10:47:40 UTC
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|I agree with Karl that tgothic package should change the
|font names, which is far easier than changing a range of
|several TeX engines and support document.
The developer (Peter Wilson) says

I did the Gothic fonts and packages in 2002 but that's
a long time ago and looking at some of the code now I
don't understand it. My original coding has been lost with
international moves and various computers.

so I think that option isn't available.

It's unlikely any user would need both Olde Englishe fonts
and Japanese fonts. Perhaps some cautionary advice in the
tgothic README would suffice. But what should that advice
be: if necessary, remove ptex before using tgothic? My
original question was "Is there a better way?"

Bob T.
Philip Taylor (RHUoL)
2018-01-24 11:34:14 UTC
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Post by Bob Tennent
It's unlikely any user would need both Olde Englishe fonts
and Japanese fonts.
Thomas J Watson (founder of IBM) thought it unlikely that the world
would ever need more than five computers ...

Philip Taylor
Zdenek Wagner
2018-01-24 13:28:03 UTC
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Look at this book: https://www.databazeknih.cz/knihy/je-jaro-1-36-178314
1+36 in the title means that is is a Czech text translated into 36
languages including Japanese, Chinese, Hindi, Persian, Arabic, Hebrew,
modern and ancient Greek, modern and ancient Mongolian, Amharic and others.
It si a rare book but you can see, that a lot of scripts were needed
(althoug some texts were scanned manuscripts, some texts were created by
other program then TeX, pages exported as EPS and included as images).


Zdeněk Wagner
http://ttsm.icpf.cas.cz/team/wagner.shtml
http://icebearsoft.euweb.cz
Post by Bob Tennent
It's unlikely any user would need both Olde Englishe fonts
and Japanese fonts.
Thomas J Watson (founder of IBM) thought it unlikely that the world would
ever need more than five computers ...
Philip Taylor
Norbert Preining
2018-01-24 13:17:07 UTC
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Hi Bob, hi all,
Post by Bob Tennent
I did the Gothic fonts and packages in 2002 but that's
a long time ago and looking at some of the code now I
don't understand it. My original coding has been lost with
international moves and various computers.
so I think that option isn't available.
It is, it is trivial. Just rename the font/mf tgoth10, tgoth7, tgoth17
to tgothr10, tgothr7, tgothr17.

Attached is a patch to the dtx file and the README that fixes all
problems and interferences.

I tested it by running the .ins runner, installed all the .mf/.sty/.fd
into my TeX Live system, and then did run the document allfonts.tex.
No problem.

So it is only a question of getting Peter to upload a fixed package,
or the permission that I can upload it.

Best

Norbert

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Peter Wilson
2018-01-24 18:20:28 UTC
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Norbert,
Thank you so much for providing a patch to the dtx and other files.
Even more so for your offer to upload the patched results to CTAN.
Please, please do it.
Best regards
Peter W.
Post by Norbert Preining
Hi Bob, hi all,
Post by Bob Tennent
I did the Gothic fonts and packages in 2002 but that's
a long time ago and looking at some of the code now I
don't understand it. My original coding has been lost with
international moves and various computers.
so I think that option isn't available.
It is, it is trivial. Just rename the font/mf tgoth10, tgoth7, tgoth17
to tgothr10, tgothr7, tgothr17.
Attached is a patch to the dtx file and the README that fixes all
problems and interferences.
I tested it by running the .ins runner, installed all the .mf/.sty/.fd
into my TeX Live system, and then did run the document allfonts.tex.
No problem.
So it is only a question of getting Peter to upload a fixed package,
or the permission that I can upload it.
Best
Norbert
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