Discussion:
Updates to new TL installer GUI
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Siep Kroonenberg
2018-11-24 11:31:53 UTC
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I uploaded some changes to the installer tcl GUI mode, which should
now be available from most mirrors.

- @Mojca: you can now specify preference for a particular wish with
a WISH environment variable, except on windows, which always uses
the supplied tclkit runtime.

- The Close buttons got suitable callbacks

- @Lars Madsen: an environment variable dbgui=1 causes some extra
lines of output to be written to the terminal, each starting with
'dbgui:'. Does the advanced menu still fail to show up? If so,
what dbgui output do you get? And is wish mostly idling or using a
lot of cpu time?

I am still working on correct resizing and on the collections
dialog. In the meantime only the log window is resizable, and a bug
where translation was not taken into account has been fixed.
--
Siep Kroonenberg
Lars Madsen
2018-11-26 08:25:36 UTC
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Hi Siep

Advanced is working fine now. I have no issues (though haven't tried installing anything)

I like the 3 part interface for specifying the target dir, that's quite nice.

One feature request: Some way of getting back from the advanced state to the simple state (mostly for exploring)


/Lars Madsen
Institut for Matematik / Department of Mathematics
Aarhus Universitet / Aarhus University
Mere info: http://au.dk/***@math / More information: http://au.dk/en/***@math


________________________________________
From: tex-live <tex-live-bounces+daleif=***@tug.org> on behalf of Siep Kroonenberg <***@bitmuis.nl>
Sent: 24 November 2018 12:31
To: tex-***@tug.org
Subject: [tex-live] Updates to new TL installer GUI

I uploaded some changes to the installer tcl GUI mode, which should
now be available from most mirrors.

- @Mojca: you can now specify preference for a particular wish with
a WISH environment variable, except on windows, which always uses
the supplied tclkit runtime.

- The Close buttons got suitable callbacks

- @Lars Madsen: an environment variable dbgui=1 causes some extra
lines of output to be written to the terminal, each starting with
'dbgui:'. Does the advanced menu still fail to show up? If so,
what dbgui output do you get? And is wish mostly idling or using a
lot of cpu time?

I am still working on correct resizing and on the collections
dialog. In the meantime only the log window is resizable, and a bug
where translation was not taken into account has been fixed.

--
Siep Kroonenberg
Philip Taylor
2018-11-26 13:58:31 UTC
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As the new TCL/TK installer doesn't expose TEXMFSYSVAR and
TEXMFSYSCONFIG locations, I used the original installer when trying to
install TeX Live from home and ran into the following problems (none of
which are related to TEXMFSYSVAR/TEXMFSYSCONFIG) —

1) I downloaded the full installation repository using Rsynch to
C:\TeX\Live\2018\Repository
2) I tried to install using install-tl-advanced.bat and was told
(paraphrase, not at home as I am composing this) "Inadequate
permissions"; changing ECHO OFF to ECHO ON disclosed that this occurred
at the point "call "%~dp0install-tl-windows.bat" -gui perltk %*"
3) I invoked "install-tl-windows -gui perltk" by hand (which succeeded)
but then found that it was trying to install from Oxford rather than
from my local repository.
4) I consulted the documentation and found that it inconsistently
described the format of the "repository" qualifier, some places stating
that it was to be preceded by a single minus sign and some by a double. 
I tried both, as in :

* install-tl-windows.bat" -gui perltk -repository .
* install-tl-windows.bat" -gui perltk --repository .

and it barfed on both.  Only :

* install-tl-windows.bat" -gui perltk -repository
C:\TeX\Live\2018\Repository succeeded.

Could anyone shed any light on these problems, please ?
Philip Taylor
Norbert Preining
2018-11-26 14:06:13 UTC
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Post by Philip Taylor
* install-tl-windows.bat" -gui perltk -repository .
* install-tl-windows.bat" -gui perltk --repository .
Both are fine: --repository or -repository, choose to your liking.
Post by Philip Taylor
* install-tl-windows.bat" -gui perltk -repository
C:\TeX\Live\2018\Repository succeeded.
Yes, full path is better.

More I cannot shed light, your computer has always been a mystery to me.

Norbert

--
PREINING Norbert http://www.preining.info
Accelia Inc. + JAIST + TeX Live + Debian Developer
GPG: 0x860CDC13 fp: F7D8 A928 26E3 16A1 9FA0 ACF0 6CAC A448 860C DC13
Philip Taylor
2018-11-26 19:03:47 UTC
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Post by Philip Taylor
As the new TCL/TK installer doesn't expose TEXMFSYSVAR and
TEXMFSYSCONFIG locations, I used the original installer when trying to
install TeX Live from home and ran into the following problems (none
of which are related to TEXMFSYSVAR/TEXMFSYSCONFIG) —
1) I downloaded the full installation repository using Rsynch to
C:\TeX\Live\2018\Repository
2) I tried to install using install-tl-advanced.bat and was told
(paraphrase, not at home as I am composing this) "Inadequate
permissions" ...
Just replicated this in the office — the exact message is "Access is
denied", then "Press any key to continue . . .".
Philip Taylor
Philip Taylor
2018-11-26 19:26:57 UTC
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Post by Philip Taylor
Just replicated this in the office — the exact message is "Access is
denied", then "Press any key to continue . . .".
Philip Taylor
Finally managed to work around this by re-ownering the "Repository"
hierarchy to Administrator, then granting full access to Administrator
(including "execute" permission, which is I think what was lacking) to
all files therein and thereundeer.  It appears to be installing now.

Philip Taylor
Siep Kroonenberg
2018-11-26 15:36:08 UTC
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Post by Lars Madsen
Hi Siep
Advanced is working fine now. I have no issues (though haven't tried installing anything)
Good to hear that.
Post by Lars Madsen
I like the 3 part interface for specifying the target dir, that's quite nice.
Thanks.
Post by Lars Madsen
One feature request: Some way of getting back from the advanced state to the simple state (mostly for exploring)
I would have to either roll back any advanced choices or decide what
to retain. I fear such a feature would only lead to confusion.

By the way: the latest revision, from november 24, does again allow
more resizing.
--
Siep Kroonenberg
Denis Bitouzé
2018-11-26 19:49:40 UTC
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Hi Siep,
Post by Siep Kroonenberg
By the way: the latest revision, from november 24, does again allow
more resizing.
Here on Linux Mageia 6, I can't resize any of the boxes (either
normal/advanced), in any way (neither maximize nor with the mouse).

Some remarks:

1. "Normal" box:
1. IMHO, the box such as "Installation root", displayed as follows
(ascii art):
┌────
│ /usr/local / texlive / 2018
│ +-------------+ +-------------+ +-------------+
│ | Browse... + | Change + | Toggle year +
│ +-------------+ +-------------+ +-------------+
└────
could be confusing, especially for beginners: this way of choosing
a directory is quite unusual.
2. Some of the boxes can be closed thanks to the `Esc' key (e.g. the
"Warning" one when "Toggle year" is clicked), other can't
(e.g. "Directory name" when "Change" is clicked).
3. "Installation root" → "Toggle year" → "Yes" makes the year part
empty, which isn't what I expected by "toggling" the year.
2. "Advanced" box:
1. Same remarks as 1.1 and 1.2.
2. The 1st "Change" button opens a box that contains (as above)
a "Browse..." button. The "Specify directories" as well, but with
lowercase "browse...".

All the best.
--
Denis
Philip Taylor
2018-11-26 20:59:50 UTC
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Post by Denis Bitouzé
1. IMHO, the box such as "Installation root", displayed as follows
┌────
│ /usr/local / texlive / 2018
│ +-------------+ +-------------+ +-------------+
│ | Browse... + | Change + | Toggle year +
│ +-------------+ +-------------+ +-------------+
└────
could be confusing, especially for beginners: this way of choosing
a directory is quite unusual.
I would agree with that; the user should (IMHO ) (be able to) either
type, or browse to, the desired location in a single dialogue box.
Philip Taylor
Zdenek Wagner
2018-11-26 21:19:44 UTC
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Post by Philip Taylor
Post by Denis Bitouzé
1. IMHO, the box such as "Installation root", displayed as follows
┌────
│ /usr/local / texlive / 2018
│ +-------------+ +-------------+ +-------------+
│ | Browse... + | Change + | Toggle year +
│ +-------------+ +-------------+ +-------------+
└────
could be confusing, especially for beginners: this way of choosing
a directory is quite unusual.
I would agree with that; the user should (IMHO ) (be able to) either
type, or browse to, the desired location in a single dialogue box.
The problem is that any GUI (including Tk) is able to navigate to
existing directory only. If a user installs his/her first TL, then
/usr/local exists but /usr/local/texlive does not. If a standard
dialogue is used, a user must first type texlive to create
/usr/local/texlive, navigate to it, then type 2018 to create
/usr/local/texlive/2018 and then select it. Alternatively the standard
dialogue can be abandoned and a single text input used. If a user
types texlive/2018, the 2018 subdirectory can be created under
existing /usr/local/texlive or the whole directory structure can
directly be created in a single step (by calling mkpath) if there is
no /usr/local/texlive. I do not want to judge which approach is better
but a combination of these two will IMHO lead to higher confusion.
Post by Philip Taylor
Philip Taylor
Zdeněk Wagner
http://ttsm.icpf.cas.cz/team/wagner.shtml
http://icebearsoft.euweb.cz
Philip Taylor
2018-11-26 21:26:10 UTC
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Post by Zdenek Wagner
The problem is that any GUI (including Tk) is able to navigate to
existing directory only.
Is that invariantly true, Zdeněk ?  I have no experience with portable
GUIs, but the native Windows GUI supports "New folder" (i.e., "create
new directory") functionality in its "Browse to location" interface and
has done so for as long as I can remember.

** Phil.
Alois Steindl
2018-11-26 21:39:55 UTC
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Post by Philip Taylor
Post by Zdenek Wagner
The problem is that any GUI (including Tk) is able to navigate to
existing directory only.
Is that invariantly true, Zdeněk ?  I have no experience with portable
GUIs, but the native Windows GUI supports "New folder" (i.e., "create
new directory") functionality in its "Browse to location" interface
and has done so for as long as I can remember.
** Phil.
It seems, you didn't read Zdeněk's message carefully enough: The user
would have to create several directories.

Maybe the best resolution to the problem might be, that you contribute
the absolutely best installer, maybe even another TeX-distribution.

Alois
Philip Taylor
2018-11-26 22:05:14 UTC
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Post by Alois Steindl
It seems, you didn't read Zdeněk's message carefully enough: The user
would have to create several directories.
I took that as a given.  But that is just routine, is it not ?  One uses
"New folder" to create (e.g.,) a directory "TeX" immediate under "X:\",
then uses the GUI to move to X:\TeX and uses "New folder" to create
"Live" (thus creating "X:\TeX\Live") and so on. This is something that I
do a very regular basis, possibly even daily.

Philip Taylor
Alois Steindl
2018-11-27 09:31:08 UTC
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Of course, this way you could also create a directory
X:\T\e\X\L\i\v\e\2\0\1\8 ..., but it is quite nasty. With the current
system you can just choose the home directory and let the installer
choose a proper substructure, which you also can overwrite, without
changing too much between keyboard and mouse.

Alois

Thanks to the TeXLive team for setting up such a valuable and
comfortable system!
Post by Alois Steindl
It seems, you didn't read Zdeněk's message carefully enough: The user
would have to create several directories.
I took that as a given.  But that is just routine, is it not ? One
uses "New folder" to create (e.g.,) a directory "TeX" immediate under
"X:\", then uses the GUI to move to X:\TeX and uses "New folder" to
create "Live" (thus creating "X:\TeX\Live") and so on. This is
something that I do a very regular basis, possibly even daily.
Philip Taylor
Philip Taylor
2018-11-27 12:08:23 UTC
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Alois, I do not  understand your point.  I responded to Zdeněk querying whether his assertion that "any GUI (including Tk) is able to navigate only to an existing directory" was universally true.  You suggested that I had not read Zdeněk's message carefully enough, and went on to say "the user would have to create several directories".  I explained that I had taken this as a given, and gave a trivial example.  You are now responding with a far more complex example that I cannot believe that you (or anyone) would us in real life.  What exactly is your point, please ?

Philip Taylor
--------
Of course, this way you could also create a directory X:\T\e\X\L\i\v\e\2\0\1\8 ..., but it is quite nasty. With the current system you can just choose the home directory and let the installer choose a proper substructure, which you also can overwrite, without changing too much between keyboard and mouse.
Alois
--
<Signature>
Philip Taylor
Alois Steindl
2018-11-27 13:46:12 UTC
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A more realistic example: Assume, you would like to install your TeXLive
in SpecialDrive:/SpecialDir/TeXLive/2018. Then you could just navigate
to  SpecialDrive:/SpecialDir and Copy the directory name into the first
part of the installer mask (or also type it in.) No need for further
input. If you want a different structure than TeXLive/2018, then you can
just type it there, but I wouldn't see any advantage for that.

With your approach you would at least 3 times have to click "New
Directory" and type in the name there; every time you need to change
from mouse motions to keyboard input.

Alois
Post by Philip Taylor
Alois, I do not  understand your point.  I responded to Zdeněk querying whether his assertion that "any GUI (including Tk) is able to navigate only to an existing directory" was universally true.  You suggested that I had not read Zdeněk's message carefully enough, and went on to say "the user would have to create several directories".  I explained that I had taken this as a given, and gave a trivial example.  You are now responding with a far more complex example that I cannot believe that you (or anyone) would us in real life.  What exactly is your point, please ?
Philip Taylor
--------
Of course, this way you could also create a directory X:\T\e\X\L\i\v\e\2\0\1\8 ..., but it is quite nasty. With the current system you can just choose the home directory and let the installer choose a proper substructure, which you also can overwrite, without changing too much between keyboard and mouse.
Alois
Denis Bitouzé
2018-11-27 15:46:46 UTC
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Post by Alois Steindl
With your approach you would at least 3 times have to click "New
Directory" and type in the name there; every time you need to change
from mouse motions to keyboard input.
Maybe like you, I find much more convenient to use only the keyboard as
far as possible. But a lot of users, for instance my students, would
probably find much more convenient to click 3 times on "New Directory".
--
Denis
Denis Bitouzé
2018-11-27 10:23:12 UTC
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Post by Zdenek Wagner
The problem is that any GUI (including Tk) is able to navigate to
existing directory only.
Some of them (file managers) let you create new directories.
--
Denis
Siep Kroonenberg
2018-11-27 13:29:58 UTC
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Post by Denis Bitouzé
Hi Siep,
Post by Siep Kroonenberg
By the way: the latest revision, from november 24, does again allow
more resizing.
Here on Linux Mageia 6, I can't resize any of the boxes (either
normal/advanced), in any way (neither maximize nor with the mouse).
The basic and advanced windows are not resizeble: shrinking would
corrupt the layout, which is already shrink-wrapped, and expanding
serves no purpose.

The selection lists should now mostly be resizable.
Post by Denis Bitouzé
1. IMHO, the box such as "Installation root", displayed as follows
┌────
│ /usr/local / texlive / 2018
│ +-------------+ +-------------+ +-------------+
│ | Browse... + | Change + | Toggle year +
│ +-------------+ +-------------+ +-------------+
└────
could be confusing, especially for beginners: this way of choosing
a directory is quite unusual.
I have encountered many selection dialogs which did not make clear
whether they would install under or in the selected directory. I
wanted this to be unambiguous. Also, the TL installer is special
because there are two levels to create.

The previous solution was manually specifying the entire string in a
text box, which was not ideal either.
Post by Denis Bitouzé
2. Some of the boxes can be closed thanks to the `Esc' key (e.g. the
"Warning" one when "Toggle year" is clicked), other can't
(e.g. "Directory name" when "Change" is clicked).
Added to my TODO list
Post by Denis Bitouzé
3. "Installation root" → "Toggle year" → "Yes" makes the year part
empty, which isn't what I expected by "toggling" the year.
What would you expect? Or can you suggest a better button text?
Post by Denis Bitouzé
1. Same remarks as 1.1 and 1.2.
2. The 1st "Change" button opens a box that contains (as above)
a "Browse..." button. The "Specify directories" as well, but with
lowercase "browse...".
Also added to the TODO list, to avoid pointless extra work for
translators.
--
Siep Kroonenberg
Denis Bitouzé
2018-11-27 16:08:39 UTC
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Permalink
Post by Siep Kroonenberg
Post by Denis Bitouzé
Hi Siep,
Post by Siep Kroonenberg
By the way: the latest revision, from november 24, does again allow
more resizing.
Here on Linux Mageia 6, I can't resize any of the boxes (either
normal/advanced), in any way (neither maximize nor with the mouse).
The basic and advanced windows are not resizeble: shrinking would
corrupt the layout,
OK.
Post by Siep Kroonenberg
which is already shrink-wrapped, and expanding serves no purpose.
In French, it is common to have longer sentences than the corresponding
English ones: will the windows sizes be adjusted to the translated
strings?

Another point: I personally prefer the window I'm currently working on
to be maximzed in order to not be disturbed by other windows.
Post by Siep Kroonenberg
The selection lists
Do you mean the child windows?
Post by Siep Kroonenberg
should now mostly be resizable.
OK, and they are so shrinkable that at the end you don't see anything :)
But I don't see any reason to forbid this for the main basic and
advanced windows.
Post by Siep Kroonenberg
Post by Denis Bitouzé
1. IMHO, the box such as "Installation root", displayed as follows
┌────
│ /usr/local / texlive / 2018
│ +-------------+ +-------------+ +-------------+
│ | Browse... + | Change + | Toggle year +
│ +-------------+ +-------------+ +-------------+
└────
could be confusing, especially for beginners: this way of choosing
a directory is quite unusual.
I have encountered many selection dialogs which did not make clear
whether they would install under or in the selected directory. I
wanted this to be unambiguous.
Mmmmmhhhh, I'm not sure it is now clearer. The directory structure
displayed as a tree view would be less puzzling, but I'm must admit
I don't know whether Tcl allows it or not.
Post by Siep Kroonenberg
Also, the TL installer is special because there are two levels to
create.
OK.
Post by Siep Kroonenberg
The previous solution was manually specifying the entire string in a
text box, which was not ideal either.
Indeed but, usually, the default string was suitable.
Post by Siep Kroonenberg
Post by Denis Bitouzé
2. Some of the boxes can be closed thanks to the `Esc' key (e.g. the
"Warning" one when "Toggle year" is clicked), other can't
(e.g. "Directory name" when "Change" is clicked).
Added to my TODO list
Thanks.
Post by Siep Kroonenberg
Post by Denis Bitouzé
3. "Installation root" → "Toggle year" → "Yes" makes the year part
empty, which isn't what I expected by "toggling" the year.
What would you expect? Or can you suggest a better button text?
In fact, I don't understand what "toggle" means here: between which
years we could toggle?
Post by Siep Kroonenberg
Post by Denis Bitouzé
1. Same remarks as 1.1 and 1.2.
2. The 1st "Change" button opens a box that contains (as above)
a "Browse..." button. The "Specify directories" as well, but with
lowercase "browse...".
Also added to the TODO list, to avoid pointless extra work for
translators.
Many thanks! :)
--
Denis
Siep Kroonenberg
2018-11-28 09:50:23 UTC
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Permalink
Post by Denis Bitouzé
Post by Siep Kroonenberg
Post by Denis Bitouzé
Hi Siep,
Post by Siep Kroonenberg
By the way: the latest revision, from november 24, does again allow
more resizing.
Here on Linux Mageia 6, I can't resize any of the boxes (either
normal/advanced), in any way (neither maximize nor with the mouse).
The basic and advanced windows are not resizeble: shrinking would
corrupt the layout,
OK.
Post by Siep Kroonenberg
which is already shrink-wrapped, and expanding serves no purpose.
In French, it is common to have longer sentences than the corresponding
English ones: will the windows sizes be adjusted to the translated
strings?
Yes, it will even adjust on the fly. Picking e.g. another scheme,
and the width of the window will probably change.

This is not necessarily true for list-like widgets, for which a
width (and height) can be specified. Instead, I have made such
widgets resizable.
Post by Denis Bitouzé
Another point: I personally prefer the window I'm currently working on
to be maximzed in order to not be disturbed by other windows.
I have to think about that.
Post by Denis Bitouzé
Mmmmmhhhh, I'm not sure it is now clearer. The directory structure
displayed as a tree view would be less puzzling, but I'm must admit
I don't know whether Tcl allows it or not.
The full path is displayed along the top. I could make it more
prominent with some extra vertical space above and below.

But 'toggle year' is maybe not the best phrasing. Add year/Omit year
may be better, the button text switching appropriately.
--
Siep Kroonenberg
Denis Bitouzé
2018-11-28 10:30:24 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Siep Kroonenberg
Post by Denis Bitouzé
In French, it is common to have longer sentences than the corresponding
English ones: will the windows sizes be adjusted to the translated
strings?
Yes, it will even adjust on the fly. Picking e.g. another scheme,
and the width of the window will probably change.
Indeed, nice.
Post by Siep Kroonenberg
This is not necessarily true for list-like widgets,
Do you mean the A4/letter drop down lists?
Post by Siep Kroonenberg
for which a width (and height) can be specified. Instead, I have made
such widgets resizable.
Post by Denis Bitouzé
Another point: I personally prefer the window I'm currently working on
to be maximzed in order to not be disturbed by other windows.
I have to think about that.
OK.
Post by Siep Kroonenberg
Post by Denis Bitouzé
Mmmmmhhhh, I'm not sure it is now clearer. The directory structure
displayed as a tree view would be less puzzling, but I'm must admit
I don't know whether Tcl allows it or not.
The full path is displayed along the top. I could make it more
prominent with some extra vertical space above and below.
I don't see what you mean.
Post by Siep Kroonenberg
But 'toggle year' is maybe not the best phrasing. Add year/Omit year
may be better, the button text switching appropriately.
Indeed.

Another remark: the different buttons can be reached (i.e. have focus)
with the TAB key but:

- the order is a bit strange,
- none of them is "clicked" when they have the focus and the RET key is
hit,
- when the drop down lists have the focus, nothing special is displayed
(unlike the buttons which have a dotted box),
- when the checkboxes have the focus, a zero width dotted box is
displayed at their right side.
--
Denis
Reinhard Kotucha
2018-11-27 23:19:50 UTC
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Post by Siep Kroonenberg
I uploaded some changes to the installer tcl GUI mode, which should
now be available from most mirrors.
Dear Siep,
when I invoke the TCL installer, a window showing the TeX lion pops up
for about a second. I'm aware that it's blasphemy, but doesn't it
make more sense to omit this window if it's displayed only for one second?

Regards,
Reinhard
--
------------------------------------------------------------------
Reinhard Kotucha Phone: +49-511-3373112
Marschnerstr. 25
D-30167 Hannover mailto:***@web.de
------------------------------------------------------------------
Norbert Preining
2018-11-27 23:52:56 UTC
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Post by Reinhard Kotucha
when I invoke the TCL installer, a window showing the TeX lion pops up
for about a second. I'm aware that it's blasphemy, but doesn't it
make more sense to omit this window if it's displayed only for one second?
It is the loading time of the tlpdb, which might take longer depending
on the mirror and connection time. Instead of giving no reaction to the
user a so called flash screen is a good idea.

Best

Norbert

--
PREINING Norbert http://www.preining.info
Accelia Inc. + JAIST + TeX Live + Debian Developer
GPG: 0x860CDC13 fp: F7D8 A928 26E3 16A1 9FA0 ACF0 6CAC A448 860C DC13
Siep Kroonenberg
2018-11-28 10:11:55 UTC
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Post by Reinhard Kotucha
Dear Siep,
when I invoke the TCL installer, a window showing the TeX lion pops up
for about a second. I'm aware that it's blasphemy, but doesn't it
make more sense to omit this window if it's displayed only for one second?
Norbert already gave a good answer, but, by way of a data point: on
my system, with a local repository on an old-fashioned hdd, it
already takes several seconds. And on a windows virtual machine,
using the same repository via a virtual network connection, I have
more than 10 seconds to admire the TeX lion.
--
Siep Kroonenberg
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