Discussion:
New installer GUI
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Siep Kroonenberg
2018-11-19 14:21:31 UTC
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For the 2019 release of TeX Live we intend to provide a new GUI
front-end for the installer. By now, it could benefit from wider
testing.

Just add a parameter '-gui tcl' to install-tl or to
install-tl-windows[.bat] and you shall see the new GUI rather than
one of the old ones.

The Windows .exe installer has gotten a fourth option 'Experimental'
which also invokes the new GUI.

The new GUI uses the Tcl/Tk scripting language. This is a standard
component of Mac OS. For Windows, a runtime is provided. But
Linux/Unix users may have to install something. e.g., on
Debian-based systems, 'apt install tk' should pull in everything
needed.

Localization: The Dutch localization is mostly complete. For other
languages than English or Dutch, be prepared to see a mixture of
English and native text strings.


--
Siep Kroonenberg
Siep Kroonenberg
2018-11-19 14:28:01 UTC
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On Mon, Nov 19, 2018 at 03:21:31PM +0100, Siep Kroonenberg wrote:
> For the 2019 release of TeX Live we intend to provide a new GUI
> front-end for the installer. By now, it could benefit from wider
> testing.

P.S. Please reply to the list, not to me personally.

--
Siep Kroonenberg
Lars Madsen
2018-11-19 14:38:16 UTC
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Interesting

Loading it works fine. And I can test to the simple installer.

If I click the advanced button, the window disappears, the programme is still running, there is an icon for it, but no windows.

Tested on Ubuntu 16.04 64-bit

(I might need to install more Tcl stuff)


/Lars Madsen
Institut for Matematik / Department of Mathematics
Aarhus Universitet / Aarhus University
Mere info: http://au.dk/***@math / More information: http://au.dk/en/***@math


________________________________________
From: tex-live <tex-live-bounces+daleif=***@tug.org> on behalf of Siep Kroonenberg <***@bitmuis.nl>
Sent: 19 November 2018 15:28
To: tex-***@tug.org
Subject: Re: [tex-live] New installer GUI

On Mon, Nov 19, 2018 at 03:21:31PM +0100, Siep Kroonenberg wrote:
> For the 2019 release of TeX Live we intend to provide a new GUI
> front-end for the installer. By now, it could benefit from wider
> testing.

P.S. Please reply to the list, not to me personally.

--
Siep Kroonenberg
Siep Kroonenberg
2018-11-19 14:42:28 UTC
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On Mon, Nov 19, 2018 at 02:38:16PM +0000, Lars Madsen wrote:
> Interesting
>
> Loading it works fine. And I can test to the simple installer.
>
> If I click the advanced button, the window disappears, the programme is still running, there is an icon for it, but no windows.
>
> Tested on Ubuntu 16.04 64-bit
>
> (I might need to install more Tcl stuff)

You should not need anything extra, but which version do you have of
Tcl/Tk?

--
Siep Kroonenberg
Lars Madsen
2018-11-19 14:46:45 UTC
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I think it is 8.6.0


/Lars Madsen
Institut for Matematik / Department of Mathematics
Aarhus Universitet / Aarhus University
Mere info: http://au.dk/***@math / More information: http://au.dk/en/***@math


________________________________________
From: tex-live <tex-live-bounces+daleif=***@tug.org> on behalf of Siep Kroonenberg <***@bitmuis.nl>
Sent: 19 November 2018 15:42
To: tex-***@tug.org
Subject: Re: [tex-live] New installer GUI

On Mon, Nov 19, 2018 at 02:38:16PM +0000, Lars Madsen wrote:
> Interesting
>
> Loading it works fine. And I can test to the simple installer.
>
> If I click the advanced button, the window disappears, the programme is still running, there is an icon for it, but no windows.
>
> Tested on Ubuntu 16.04 64-bit
>
> (I might need to install more Tcl stuff)

You should not need anything extra, but which version do you have of
Tcl/Tk?

--
Siep Kroonenberg
Siep Kroonenberg
2018-11-19 14:51:37 UTC
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On Mon, Nov 19, 2018 at 02:46:45PM +0000, Lars Madsen wrote:
> I think it is 8.6.0

That should be ok. I need to figure out some diagnostics for this.

--
Siep Kroonenberg
Lars Madsen
2018-11-19 15:03:11 UTC
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A debugging option or a log might be useful.

Note, the only thing I did was to rsync tlnet, and tage the Linux installer from it. It created a folder with todays date, so we ought to be ok

/Lars Madsen
Institut for Matematik / Department of Mathematics
Aarhus Universitet / Aarhus University
Mere info: http://au.dk/***@math / More information: http://au.dk/en/***@math


________________________________________
From: tex-live <tex-live-bounces+daleif=***@tug.org> on behalf of Siep Kroonenberg <***@bitmuis.nl>
Sent: 19 November 2018 15:51
To: tex-***@tug.org
Subject: Re: [tex-live] New installer GUI

On Mon, Nov 19, 2018 at 02:46:45PM +0000, Lars Madsen wrote:
> I think it is 8.6.0

That should be ok. I need to figure out some diagnostics for this.

--
Siep Kroonenberg
Philip Taylor
2018-11-19 14:41:31 UTC
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Siep Kroonenberg wrote:
> For the 2019 release of TeX Live we intend to provide a new GUI
> front-end for the installer. By now, it could benefit from wider
> testing.
>
> Just add a parameter '-gui tcl' to install-tl or to
> install-tl-windows[.bat] and you shall see the new GUI rather than
> one of the old ones.
Splendid (and much welcomed) news, Siep.  But one question, if I may ?  When you say "Just add a parameter '-gui tcl' ", presumably you are speaking of adding this parameter to the TeX Live 2018 installer, since (as far as I know) the 2019 version is as yet unannounced.  And can the parameter also be added to install-tl-advanced, which is my installer of choice ?

Incidentally, in order to remind myself where I had installed TeX Live 2018, I typed "kpsewhich xetex.exe"; kpsewhich returned nothing, not even with the addition of "-must-exist".  I finally had to ask it to search for "x.tex", since I had no idea which files it might (or might not) be able to find.
--
<Signature>
Philip Taylor
Arthur Reutenauer
2018-11-19 14:51:20 UTC
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On Mon, Nov 19, 2018 at 02:41:31PM +0000, Philip Taylor wrote:
> Incidentally, in order to remind myself where I had installed TeX Live 2018, I typed "kpsewhich xetex.exe"; kpsewhich returned nothing, not even with the addition of "-must-exist".  I finally had to ask it to search for "x.tex", since I had no idea which files it might (or might not) be able to find.

kpsewich is not by default configured to look for binary programs;
searching for a TeX file you know will exist in the distribution, such
as plain.tex and hyphen.tex, is the expected way to do it.

Arthur
Norbert Preining
2018-11-19 14:55:10 UTC
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On Mon, 19 Nov 2018, Philip Taylor wrote:
> Incidentally, in order to remind myself where I had installed TeX Live 2018, I typed "kpsewhich xetex.exe"; kpsewhich returned nothing, not even with the addition of "-must-exist".  I finally had to ask it to search for "x.tex", since I had no idea which files it might (or might not) be able to find.

kpsewhich -var-value TEXMFROOT

Norbert

--
PREINING Norbert http://www.preining.info
Accelia Inc. + JAIST + TeX Live + Debian Developer
GPG: 0x860CDC13 fp: F7D8 A928 26E3 16A1 9FA0 ACF0 6CAC A448 860C DC13
Siep Kroonenberg
2018-11-19 15:00:42 UTC
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On Mon, Nov 19, 2018 at 02:41:31PM +0000, Philip Taylor wrote:
>
>
> Siep Kroonenberg wrote:
> > For the 2019 release of TeX Live we intend to provide a new GUI
> > front-end for the installer. By now, it could benefit from wider
> > testing.
> >
> > Just add a parameter '-gui tcl' to install-tl or to
> > install-tl-windows[.bat] and you shall see the new GUI rather than
> > one of the old ones.
> Splendid (and much welcomed) news, Siep.  But one question, if I may ?  When you say "Just add a parameter '-gui tcl' ", presumably you are speaking of adding this parameter to the TeX Live 2018 installer, since (as far as I know) the 2019 version is as yet unannounced.  And can the parameter also be added to install-tl-advanced, which is my installer of choice ?

Tcl mode is available now.

The only thing that install-tl-advanced.bat does is invoking
install-tl-windows.bat with a '-gui perltk' parameter. The tcl gui
has a button 'advanced' which opens up (almost) all the
configuration options. I am not sure what would happen if you added
two -gui paramters.

--
Siep Kroonenberg
Mojca Miklavec
2018-11-19 15:02:43 UTC
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Dear Siep,

On Mon, 19 Nov 2018 at 15:24, Siep Kroonenberg wrote:
>
> For the 2019 release of TeX Live we intend to provide a new GUI
> front-end for the installer. By now, it could benefit from wider
> testing.
>
> Just add a parameter '-gui tcl' to install-tl or to
> install-tl-windows[.bat] and you shall see the new GUI rather than
> one of the old ones.

Amazing, thank you very much :) :) :),
and a bunch of roses to the Netherlands.

On my Mac it works like a charm.
OK, I first had to reinstall Tk via MacPorts to use quartz by default,
but it worked under X11 as well, and I tested it under the default Tcl
later as well.
I didn't know that Tcl apparently doesn't yet support high resolution
displays, but that's ok.
It would make sense for someone with the black background & 10.14 to test it.

Some minor feature requests and bug reports:
- My personal feature request would be the ability to specify the
precise path to `wish` (and honour that one if/when present).
- Collections cannot be resized.
- Main window can be resized, but when resized towards smaller
dimensions there's no scrollbar on the bottom or on the right, the
layout gets messed up in vertical direction and inaccessible in the
horizontal one.
- The schemes window is initially too small to fit all the translated
strings. If shrinked, items become inaccessible.
- Making "installation root" too small is also somewhat problematic.
- When I click the red cross on "Installation root" to close it
(instead of clicking cancel), I get "Error: can't read "wnd": no such
variable" and I cannot close the window.
- Clicking the red cross to close the main installation window is also
not handled in a proper way (I cannot even exit the program then,
other than forcing the close).
- Instead of "Select all" and "Remove selections" buttons in
Collections it would be more natural (similar to how other software
works) to have a checkbox in the header to achieve the same, but
that's a super small priority. One could then also only disable
languages, or only other collections.
- "Portable setup" could have a checkbox rather than a button with long text.

(I assume that so far we only have an installer, no updater yet.)

Again, thank you very much,
Mojca
Siep Kroonenberg
2018-11-20 10:24:10 UTC
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On Mon, Nov 19, 2018 at 04:02:43PM +0100, Mojca Miklavec wrote:
> Dear Siep,
>
> On Mon, 19 Nov 2018 at 15:24, Siep Kroonenberg wrote:
>
> Amazing, thank you very much :) :) :),
> and a bunch of roses to the Netherlands.
>
> On my Mac it works like a charm.
> OK, I first had to reinstall Tk via MacPorts to use quartz by default,
> but it worked under X11 as well, and I tested it under the default Tcl
> later as well.
> I didn't know that Tcl apparently doesn't yet support high resolution
> displays, but that's ok.
> It would make sense for someone with the black background & 10.14 to test it.

I do have 10.14. There, HiDPI works fine with the built-in Tcl/Tk,
but dark mode is ignored.

> Some minor feature requests and bug reports:
> - My personal feature request would be the ability to specify the
> precise path to `wish` (and honour that one if/when present).

What about letting the wrapper code inside install-tl check for an
environment variable WISH? You can also invoke the tcl installer
directly with a wish of your choice:

<your_wish> <installer_root>/tlpkg/installer/install-tl-gui.tcl

In the tcl case, the initial invokation of install-tl just serves as
a simple wrapper which hands control over to tcl, which in turn
invokes install-tl as a backend process. This may change in the 2019
release.

> - Collections cannot be resized.
> - Main window can be resized, but when resized towards smaller
> dimensions there's no scrollbar on the bottom or on the right, the
> layout gets messed up in vertical direction and inaccessible in the
> horizontal one.
> - The schemes window is initially too small to fit all the translated
> strings. If shrinked, items become inaccessible.
> - Making "installation root" too small is also somewhat problematic.
> - When I click the red cross on "Installation root" to close it
> (instead of clicking cancel), I get "Error: can't read "wnd": no such
> variable" and I cannot close the window.
> - Clicking the red cross to close the main installation window is also
> not handled in a proper way (I cannot even exit the program then,
> other than forcing the close).
> - Instead of "Select all" and "Remove selections" buttons in
> Collections it would be more natural (similar to how other software
> works) to have a checkbox in the header to achieve the same, but
> that's a super small priority. One could then also only disable
> languages, or only other collections.

I'll address some of these points in the next update.

> - "Portable setup" could have a checkbox rather than a button with long text.

I opted for a button just to have yes/no in the middle column.

> (I assume that so far we only have an installer, no updater yet.)

Actually, I am putting some finishing touches on tlshell, but this
got interrupted by the feedback on the installer. Stay tuned.

--
Siep Kroonenberg
Denis Bitouzé
2018-11-19 15:52:12 UTC
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Le 19/11/18 à 15h21, Siep Kroonenberg a écrit :

> For the 2019 release of TeX Live we intend to provide a new GUI
> front-end for the installer. By now, it could benefit from wider
> testing.

Nice news: many thanks, Siep!

> Just add a parameter '-gui tcl' to install-tl or to
> install-tl-windows[.bat] and you shall see the new GUI rather than
> one of the old ones.

Unfortunately, on my Linux Mageia 6 box:

┌────
│ $ /home/bitouze/tl-pretest/tlpretest/install-tl -gui tcl
│ UI plugin tcl not found,
│ Using text mode installer.
│ [...]
└────

though:

┌────
│ $ rpm -q tk
│ tk-8.6.5-1.mga6
└────
--
Denis
Lars Madsen
2018-11-19 16:21:13 UTC
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Denis, which pretest are you using?

Have you tried just grapping the latest installer and trying that?




/Lars Madsen
Institut for Matematik / Department of Mathematics
Aarhus Universitet / Aarhus University
Mere info: http://au.dk/***@math / More information: http://au.dk/en/***@math


________________________________________
From: tex-live <tex-live-bounces+daleif=***@tug.org> on behalf of Denis Bitouzé <***@wanadoo.fr>
Sent: 19 November 2018 16:52
To: tex-***@tug.org
Subject: Re: [tex-live] New installer GUI

Le 19/11/18 à 15h21, Siep Kroonenberg a écrit :

> For the 2019 release of TeX Live we intend to provide a new GUI
> front-end for the installer. By now, it could benefit from wider
> testing.

Nice news: many thanks, Siep!

> Just add a parameter '-gui tcl' to install-tl or to
> install-tl-windows[.bat] and you shall see the new GUI rather than
> one of the old ones.

Unfortunately, on my Linux Mageia 6 box:

┌────
│ $ /home/bitouze/tl-pretest/tlpretest/install-tl -gui tcl
│ UI plugin tcl not found,
│ Using text mode installer.
│ [...]
└────

though:

┌────
│ $ rpm -q tk
│ tk-8.6.5-1.mga6
└────
--
Denis
Denis Bitouzé
2018-11-19 17:50:33 UTC
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Hi Lars,

Le 19/11/18 à 16h21, Lars Madsen a écrit :

> Denis, which pretest are you using?
>
> Have you tried just grapping the latest installer and trying that?

Ooops, I mixed `tl-pretest' and `texlive-svn': sorry for the noise. With
the right one, UI plugin tcl is found.
--
Denis
Denis Bitouzé
2018-11-19 18:04:11 UTC
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Le 19/11/18 à 15h21, Siep Kroonenberg a écrit :

> For the 2019 release of TeX Live we intend to provide a new GUI
> front-end for the installer. By now, it could benefit from wider
> testing.
>
> Localization: The Dutch localization is mostly complete. For other
> languages than English or Dutch, be prepared to see a mixture of
> English and native text strings.

Some remarks:

1. The first window is by default too much chunky (see [1]).
2. It would be nice for the text strings that appear to be copyable (in
order people can more easily report troubles).
3. The text strings are a mixture of English, indeed, and German
strings: is it what you mean by native ones (I expected native ones
to be French ones :)
4. I guess the text strings translations would be similar to the
previous installer so we won't have to translate them again.
5. For the moment, I must admit I don't see the benefit compared to the
previous installer.

[1] http://gte.univ-littoral.fr/members/dbitouze/pub/latex/divers/tex-live-installer/downloadFile/file/TeX_Live_Installer_1.png
--
Denis
Siep Kroonenberg
2018-11-19 19:55:51 UTC
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On Mon, Nov 19, 2018 at 07:04:11PM +0100, Denis Bitouzé wrote:
> Le 19/11/18 à 15h21, Siep Kroonenberg a écrit :
>
> > For the 2019 release of TeX Live we intend to provide a new GUI
> > front-end for the installer. By now, it could benefit from wider
> > testing.
> >
> > Localization: The Dutch localization is mostly complete. For other
> > languages than English or Dutch, be prepared to see a mixture of
> > English and native text strings.
>
> Some remarks:
>
> 1. The first window is by default too much chunky (see [1]).

I can reproduce such a messed-up window if I resize the window. I
could set it to non-resizeable. Is this by any chance a HiDPI display?

> 2. It would be nice for the text strings that appear to be copyable (in
> order people can more easily report troubles).

I do not think that is possible for labels and buttons.

> 3. The text strings are a mixture of English, indeed, and German
> strings: is it what you mean by native ones (I expected native ones
> to be French ones :)

You can explicitly specify a language with a '-lang fr' parameter. I
do not know why tcl thinks that German should be the default
language on your system.

> 4. I guess the text strings translations would be similar to the
> previous installer so we won't have to translate them again.

The new GUI reads the same .po translation files as the old one, but
there are a lot of new or different strings.

--
Siep Kroonenberg
Denis Bitouzé
2018-11-19 20:28:56 UTC
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Le 19/11/18 à 20h55, Siep Kroonenberg a écrit :

> On Mon, Nov 19, 2018 at 07:04:11PM +0100, Denis Bitouzé wrote:
>> Le 19/11/18 à 15h21, Siep Kroonenberg a écrit :
>>
>> > For the 2019 release of TeX Live we intend to provide a new GUI
>> > front-end for the installer. By now, it could benefit from wider
>> > testing.
>> >
>> > Localization: The Dutch localization is mostly complete. For other
>> > languages than English or Dutch, be prepared to see a mixture of
>> > English and native text strings.
>>
>> Some remarks:
>>
>> 1. The first window is by default too much chunky (see [1]).
>
> I can reproduce such a messed-up window if I resize the window. I
> could set it to non-resizeable. Is this by any chance a HiDPI display?

I don't think so: I guess it is 1920×1080.

>> 2. It would be nice for the text strings that appear to be copyable (in
>> order people can more easily report troubles).
>
> I do not think that is possible for labels and buttons.

Too bad.

>> 3. The text strings are a mixture of English, indeed, and German
>> strings: is it what you mean by native ones (I expected native ones
>> to be French ones :)
>
> You can explicitly specify a language with a '-lang fr' parameter. I
> do not know why tcl thinks that German should be the default
> language on your system.

Nice! And, BTW, the first window's sizes are then okay by default.

>> 4. I guess the text strings translations would be similar to the
>> previous installer so we won't have to translate them again.
>
> The new GUI reads the same .po translation files as the old one, but
> there are a lot of new or different strings.

Okay.
--
Denis
Philip Taylor
2018-11-19 21:57:40 UTC
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Siep Kroonenberg wrote:
> For the 2019 release of TeX Live we intend to provide a new GUI
> front-end for the installer. By now, it could benefit from wider
> testing.
>
> Just add a parameter '-gui tcl' to install-tl or to
> install-tl-windows[.bat]

OK, I rsynch'd the current TeX Live installation suite while eating
dinner, and have just launched "install-tl-windows -gui tcl".  There
were a few oddities (it appears to ignore <return> as a completer,
requiring an explicit click on a button instead) but then I hit a major
problem — I cannot see where to configure the locations of the TEXMFVAR
and TEXMFCONFIG directory hierarchies. With the previous installer I was
able to configure these as X:\TeX\Live\<Year>\TeXMF\Config &
X:\TeX\Live\<Year>\TeXMF\Var — how should I accomplish that with the new
one, please ?

Philip Taylor
Philip Taylor
2018-11-20 00:15:04 UTC
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Philip Taylor wrote:

> [...] I cannot see where to configure the locations of the TEXMFVAR
> and TEXMFCONFIG directory hierarchies.

That should, of course, have read "the locations of the TEXMFSYSVAR and
TEXMFSYSCONFIG directory hierarchies" as I now see when running the
older "install-TL-advanced" in order to be able to configure these. 
Nonetheless, I would still like to know how to configure these locations
using the new installer.

Philip Taylor
Norbert Preining
2018-11-20 00:52:28 UTC
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>
> That should, of course, have read "the locations of the TEXMFSYSVAR and
> TEXMFSYSCONFIG directory hierarchies" as I now see when running the older
> "install-TL-advanced" in order to be able to configure these.  Nonetheless,
> I would still like to know how to configure these locations using the new
> installer.

Not supported by now. For this, please use the text mode or perltk
installer.

Norbert

--
PREINING Norbert http://www.preining.info
Accelia Inc. + JAIST + TeX Live + Debian Developer
GPG: 0x860CDC13 fp: F7D8 A928 26E3 16A1 9FA0 ACF0 6CAC A448 860C DC13
Siep Kroonenberg
2018-11-20 09:55:09 UTC
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On Tue, Nov 20, 2018 at 12:15:04AM +0000, Philip Taylor wrote:
> Philip Taylor wrote:
>
> > [...] I cannot see where to configure the locations of the TEXMFVAR and
> > TEXMFCONFIG directory hierarchies.
>
> That should, of course, have read "the locations of the TEXMFSYSVAR and
> TEXMFSYSCONFIG directory hierarchies" as I now see when running the older
> "install-TL-advanced" in order to be able to configure these.  Nonetheless,
> I would still like to know how to configure these locations using the new
> installer.

I did not anticipate that anybody would want to mess with these. Of
course, I should have anticipated that you would. So I have to
decide whether that is a good enough reason to put it in, since
there are alternatives, as Norbert explained. I do not want to
overload users with rarely-used options.

If anybody else on this list thinks these options should be
included, please speak up.

--
Siep Kroonenberg
Philip Taylor
2018-11-20 10:40:33 UTC
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Dear Siep —

> I did not anticipate that anybody would want to mess with these.

With respect, not "mess with".  "Configure".  There is a considerable
difference.  These have always been user-accessible configuration
options, and I have been consistently exploiting this feature for at
least a decade.  It would be really nice if the location of
TEXMF(SYS)DIST were exposed in the same way, so that there could be just
one TeXMF root.

> Of course, I should have anticipated that you would. So I have to
> decide whether that is a good enough reason to put it in, since
> there are alternatives, as Norbert explained. I do not want to
> overload users with rarely-used options.

I fully accept that you may not wish to expend time implementing a
feature that you do not anticipate others will use, and if you choose
not to implement it I will, of course, accept your decision with good
grace.  But I do not believe that you would be "overloading" users were
you to offer the option to configure these locations — you would, I
believe, simply be meeting their expectations that a new installer will
offer at least the same options as the old one, if not more.

Philip Taylor
Norbert Preining
2018-11-20 22:45:04 UTC
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On Tue, 20 Nov 2018, Siep Kroonenberg wrote:
> I did not anticipate that anybody would want to mess with these. Of
> course, I should have anticipated that you would. So I have to
> decide whether that is a good enough reason to put it in, since
> there are alternatives, as Norbert explained. I do not want to
> overload users with rarely-used options.

Totally agreed. The text mode is the ultimate tool for all settings.
GUI should cater to good UX.

Norbert

--
PREINING Norbert http://www.preining.info
Accelia Inc. + JAIST + TeX Live + Debian Developer
GPG: 0x860CDC13 fp: F7D8 A928 26E3 16A1 9FA0 ACF0 6CAC A448 860C DC13
Zdenek Wagner
2018-11-20 22:55:57 UTC
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út 20. 11. 2018 v 23:45 odesílatel Norbert Preining <***@logic.at> napsal:
>
> On Tue, 20 Nov 2018, Siep Kroonenberg wrote:
> > I did not anticipate that anybody would want to mess with these. Of
> > course, I should have anticipated that you would. So I have to
> > decide whether that is a good enough reason to put it in, since
> > there are alternatives, as Norbert explained. I do not want to
> > overload users with rarely-used options.
>
> Totally agreed. The text mode is the ultimate tool for all settings.
> GUI should cater to good UX.


There is a possibility to have a button "Advanced settings" which will
open a popup
dialogue with rarelyéused options. But this is just an idea...
>
>
> Norbert
>
Zdeněk Wagner
http://ttsm.icpf.cas.cz/team/wagner.shtml
http://icebearsoft.euweb.cz
Norbert Preining
2018-11-21 00:32:10 UTC
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On Tue, 20 Nov 2018, Zdenek Wagner wrote:
> There is a possibility to have a button "Advanced settings" which will

There is already a button for that ;-) but the advanced settings there
do not exhibit TEXMFSYS*

Norbert

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Siep Kroonenberg
2018-11-21 09:31:20 UTC
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On Wed, Nov 21, 2018 at 09:32:10AM +0900, Norbert Preining wrote:
> On Tue, 20 Nov 2018, Zdenek Wagner wrote:
> > There is a possibility to have a button "Advanced settings" which will

More specifically, a button 'More...' between the TEXDIR and
TEXMFLOCAL rows. But I would still want a better reason than Phil's
sense of aesthetics.

> There is already a button for that ;-) but the advanced settings there
> do not exhibit TEXMFSYS*
>
> Norbert

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Siep Kroonenberg
Philip Taylor
2018-11-21 10:19:57 UTC
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Siep Kroonenberg wrote:
>
> More specifically, a button 'More...' between the TEXDIR and
> TEXMFLOCAL rows. But I would still want a better reason than Phil's
> sense of aesthetics.

The primary argument I would adduce is "for compatibility with the previous installer".  The functionality has been exposed for so long (well over a decade, I believe) that users will expect it to be present. Adding functionality is good and to be encouraged; removing functionality, if there is no good reason for so doing, is not.
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Philip Taylor
Norbert Preining
2018-11-21 10:23:36 UTC
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Phil,

AFAIR the default GUI on Windows is the wizard installer which does not exhibit any variable but the base location.


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Philip Taylor
2018-11-21 10:45:26 UTC
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Siep Kroonenberg
2018-11-21 10:54:49 UTC
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On Wed, Nov 21, 2018 at 10:45:26AM +0000, Philip Taylor wrote:
> <html>
> <head>
> <meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
> </head>
> <body text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
> <br>
> <br>
> <div class="moz-cite-prefix">Norbert Preining wrote:<br>
> </div>
> <blockquote type="cite"
> cite="mid:8945F9F1-16E4-4FE4-8B98-***@logic.at">
> <pre wrap="">Phil,
>
> AFAIR the default GUI on Windows is the wizard installer which does not exhibit any variable but the base location.
> </pre>
> </blockquote>
> <br>
> Quite probably true, and is almost certainly the reason why I have
> never used it.  After all, why do I never use LaTeX ?  Because it
> does its ***@mndest to hide from me the true power of raw TeX.<br>
> <br>
> <pre wrap="">Siep Kroonenberg wrote:
> </pre>
> <blockquote type="cite" style="color: #000000;">
> <pre wrap="">The good reason is reducing clutter.
>
> </pre>
> </blockquote>
> <pre wrap="">
> Well, one man's (or woman's) clutter is another man's life-support kit ...
> </pre>
> <div class="moz-signature">-- <br>
> <img src="cid:***@Rhul.Ac.Uk"
> alt="&lt;Signature&gt;"><br>
> Philip Taylor</div>
> </body>
> </html>

VThen I really urge you to use the text-mode installer. There, you
can configure even more subdirectories:

===============================================================================
Directories customization:

<1> TEXDIR: /usr/local/texlive/2018
support tree: /usr/local/texlive/2018/texmf-dist

<2> TEXMFLOCAL: /usr/local/texlive/texmf-local
<3> TEXMFSYSVAR: /usr/local/texlive/2018/texmf-var
<4> TEXMFSYSCONFIG: /usr/local/texlive/2018/texmf-config

<5> TEXMFVAR: ~/.texlive2018/texmf-var
<6> TEXMFCONFIG: ~/.texlive2018/texmf-config
<7> TEXMFHOME: ~/texmf

Note: ~ will expand to $HOME (or to %USERPROFILE% on Windows)

See how much raw power you have been denying yourself by using a GUI
installer!

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Siep Kroonenberg
Philip Taylor
2018-11-21 11:03:38 UTC
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Siep Kroonenberg wrote:
>
> ===============================================================================
> Directories customization:
>
> <1> TEXDIR: /usr/local/texlive/2018
> support tree: /usr/local/texlive/2018/texmf-dist
>
> <2> TEXMFLOCAL: /usr/local/texlive/texmf-local
> <3> TEXMFSYSVAR: /usr/local/texlive/2018/texmf-var
> <4> TEXMFSYSCONFIG: /usr/local/texlive/2018/texmf-config
>
> <5> TEXMFVAR: ~/.texlive2018/texmf-var
> <6> TEXMFCONFIG: ~/.texlive2018/texmf-config
> <7> TEXMFHOME: ~/texmf
>
> Note: ~ will expand to $HOME (or to %USERPROFILE% on Windows)
>
> See how much raw power you have been denying yourself by using a GUI
> installer!
>

Ah, but it doesn't expose TEXMF(SYS)DIST, so it's not really offering any advantage over the existing GUI interface ...
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Philip Taylor
Norbert Preining
2018-11-21 11:22:18 UTC
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There is no TEXMFSYSDIST, and we never allowed for configuration of TEXMFDIST in any installer.

So what are you trying to do??



On November 21, 2018 8:03:38 PM GMT+09:00, Philip Taylor <***@Rhul.Ac.Uk> wrote:
>
>
>Siep Kroonenberg wrote:
>>
>>
>===============================================================================
>> Directories customization:
>>
>> <1> TEXDIR: /usr/local/texlive/2018
>> support tree: /usr/local/texlive/2018/texmf-dist
>>
>> <2> TEXMFLOCAL: /usr/local/texlive/texmf-local
>> <3> TEXMFSYSVAR: /usr/local/texlive/2018/texmf-var
>> <4> TEXMFSYSCONFIG: /usr/local/texlive/2018/texmf-config
>>
>> <5> TEXMFVAR: ~/.texlive2018/texmf-var
>> <6> TEXMFCONFIG: ~/.texlive2018/texmf-config
>> <7> TEXMFHOME: ~/texmf
>>
>> Note: ~ will expand to $HOME (or to %USERPROFILE% on Windows)
>>
>> See how much raw power you have been denying yourself by using a GUI
>> installer!
>>
>
>Ah, but it doesn't expose TEXMF(SYS)DIST, so it's not really offering
>any advantage over the existing GUI interface ...


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Accelia Inc. + JAIST + TeX Live + Debian Developer
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Philip Taylor
2018-11-21 11:41:11 UTC
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Norbert Preining wrote:
> There is no TEXMFSYSDIST, and we never allowed for configuration of TEXMFDIST in any installer.
>
> So what are you trying to do??
Root TEXMFDIST, TEXMFSYSVAR and TEXMFSYSCONFIG in a single location :

    X:\TeX\Live\<Year>\TeXMF

i.e., X:\TeX\Live\<Year>\TeXMF\Dist, X:\TeX\Live\<Year>\TeXMF\Var, X:\TeX\Live\<Year>\TeXMF\Config

I can (with the current GUI installer but not the new one) accomplish the 2nd and 3rd of these but not the first.

TEXMFLOCAL is already rooted at :

    X:\TeX\Live\TeXMF

i.e., X:\TeX\Live\TeXMF\Local

I have no idea what TEXMFVAR and TEXMFCONFIG might be used for, but I have never found any reason to install anything in either of them, so I have never needed (or wanted) to configure their locations.

** Phil.
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Philip Taylor
Norbert Preining
2018-11-21 12:47:21 UTC
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On Wed, 21 Nov 2018, Philip Taylor wrote:
> The good reason is reducing clutter.
>
> Well, one man's (or woman's) clutter is another man's life-support kit ...

Philip, we would be *extremely* glad if you could reduce the clutter and
do *NOT* send HTML emails. They are nothing but a PITA. Thanks.

Norbert

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Philip Taylor
2018-11-21 13:13:41 UTC
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One hastens to oblige, whilst quietly observing that if you were to migrate to a more modern operating system such as Windows 7 and adopt a more modern e-mail client such as Seamonkey, you might find HTML e-mails not only less of a PITA but actually of some benefit when seeking to communicate (for example), stress, foreign words, bulleted or enumerated lists, etc. One is also inclined to observe that cluttering up one's e-mail signature with pointless noise such as

> GPG: 0x860CDC13 fp: F7D8 A928 26E3 16A1 9FA0 ACF0 6CAC A448 860C DC13

is not really an outstanding example of "good practice".
--------
Norbert Preining wrote:

> Philip, we would be extremely glad if you could reduce the clutter and
> do NOT send HTML emails. They are nothing but a PITA. Thanks.
Norbert Preining
2018-11-21 13:23:31 UTC
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Dear Philip,

I recommend you to leave the TeX world and fully embrace Adobe or
Microsoft products, so that your enjoyment of flashyness, shininess,
and miles of mouse movements are not hindered by one of those
old-fashioned text mode stuff like TeX, mutt, or text emails.

And by the way - concering foreign words - I am typing this in my text
mode mutt email client, and it contains
- deutsche Wörter mit Umlaute
- 日本語の単語
but if you want, I can send you Russian, Tibetan, Italian, Sanskrit,
whatever, nothing of this is tied to HTML.

Welcome to the new world of text processing - you might need some study
session.

> One is also inclined to observe that cluttering up one's e-mail signature with pointless noise such as
> > GPG: 0x860CDC13 fp: F7D8 A928 26E3 16A1 9FA0 ACF0 6CAC A448 860C DC13
>
> is not really an outstanding example of "good practice".

Footers in emails, since the inception of email, have been separated by
double dashes, as I do. Good email programs (not the one you use) strip
of these signatures automatically. But your ignorance of GPG and the
importance of encrypted communication is not surprising.

Enjoy

Norbert

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Philip Taylor
2018-11-21 13:53:53 UTC
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Norbert Preining wrote:

> And by the way - concer[n]ing foreign words - I am typing this in my text
> mode mutt email client, and it contains

> - deutsche Wörter mit Umlaute
> - 日本語の単語

Yes, but they were not italicised, as at least the first (German) should have been when embedded in what is primarily an English language text.

> Footers in emails, since the inception of email, have been separated by
> double dashes, as I do. Good email programs (not the one you use) strip
> of[f] these signatures automatically.

Completely pointless sending them, then — I rest my case. Incidentally, as the author of "Janet_mailshr" (written in the mid-80's), I believe I may claim some small familiarity with e-mail protocols, but not (of course) with protocols that originate in Usenet news [1]

"Have a good day, Norbert" :-)
** Phil.
--------
[1] https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc3676#page-9
Zdenek Wagner
2018-11-21 14:13:56 UTC
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st 21. 11. 2018 v 14:54 odesílatel Philip Taylor <***@rhul.ac.uk> napsal:
>
>
>
>
> Norbert Preining wrote:
>
> > And by the way - concer[n]ing foreign words - I am typing this in my text
> > mode mutt email client, and it contains
>
> > - deutsche Wörter mit Umlaute
> > - 日本語の単語
>
> Yes, but they were not italicised, as at least the first (German) should have been when embedded in what is primarily an English language text.
>
I think that people should be taught to return to the roots, they
should understand the meaning. Font changes should be used for stress,
not just for showing the words from other languages. Typographical
beauty of books is yet another topic, it makes no sense to format
e-mails as books.

> > Footers in emails, since the inception of email, have been separated by
> > double dashes, as I do. Good email programs (not the one you use) strip
> > of[f] these signatures automatically.
>
> Completely pointless sending them, then — I rest my case. Incidentally, as the author of "Janet_mailshr" (written in the mid-80's), I believe I may claim some small familiarity with e-mail protocols, but not (of course) with protocols that originate in Usenet news [1]
>
This is not just a mail protocol. I can easily claim to be Norbert
Preining, generate the key pairs and sign the mails and other files.
There is no certification authority for GPG, you must obtain the
fingerprnt by an independent channel. The public key can be signed but
it does not have the same strength as web servers certificate. Thus
you can receive a mail signed digitally by Humpty Dumpty, his public
key will be signed by Mock Turtle, Cheshire Cat, and Mad Hatter, but
how can you know who really sent the mail if the sender e-mail address
is forged and you cannot match the key fingerprint to a person you
know?

> "Have a good day, Norbert" :-)
> ** Phil.
> --------
> [1] https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc3676#page-9


Zdeněk Wagner
http://ttsm.icpf.cas.cz/team/wagner.shtml
http://icebearsoft.euweb.cz
Norbert Preining
2018-11-21 15:17:58 UTC
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On Wed, 21 Nov 2018, Zdenek Wagner wrote:
> it does not have the same strength as web servers certificate. Thus
> you can receive a mail signed digitally by Humpty Dumpty, his public
> key will be signed by Mock Turtle, Cheshire Cat, and Mad Hatter, but
> how can you know who really sent the mail if the sender e-mail address
> is forged and you cannot match the key fingerprint to a person you
> know?

Web of trust. It is the old - very old - discussion between whom you
trust more: a central authority (hoh hoh, breaches of CA have been far
and wide) or a web of trust (this guy's key has been signed by a guy I
know!).

I prefer the later one, I prefer non-centralized single-point-of-failure
security. You say that "web server certificates are stronger", which I
strongly disagree.

Simple question: which software release is signed with a ssl certificate
instead of a pgp/gpg certificate? At least in the OSS world I don't know
of any.

Norbert

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Michael Berger
2018-11-21 15:34:16 UTC
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Good by Phil and happy return to your overwhelming smug complacency!

Michael (sorry,  I am just a stupid German)

On 11/21/18 2:53 PM, Philip Taylor wrote:
>
>
> Norbert Preining wrote:
>
>> And by the way - concer[n]ing foreign words - I am typing this in my text
>> mode mutt email client, and it contains
>> - deutsche Wörter mit Umlaute
>> - 日本語の単語
> Yes, but they were not italicised, as at least the first (German) should have been when embedded in what is primarily an English language text.
>
>> Footers in emails, since the inception of email, have been separated by
>> double dashes, as I do. Good email programs (not the one you use) strip
>> of[f] these signatures automatically.
> Completely pointless sending them, then — I rest my case. Incidentally, as the author of "Janet_mailshr" (written in the mid-80's), I believe I may claim some small familiarity with e-mail protocols, but not (of course) with protocols that originate in Usenet news [1]
>
> "Have a good day, Norbert" :-)
> ** Phil.
> --------
> [1] https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc3676#page-9
Siep Kroonenberg
2018-11-21 10:38:51 UTC
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On Wed, Nov 21, 2018 at 10:19:57AM +0000, Philip Taylor wrote:
>
>
> Siep Kroonenberg wrote:
> >
> > More specifically, a button 'More...' between the TEXDIR and
> > TEXMFLOCAL rows. But I would still want a better reason than Phil's
> > sense of aesthetics.
>
> The primary argument I would adduce is "for compatibility with the previous installer".  The functionality has been exposed for so long (well over a decade, I believe) that users will expect it to be present. Adding functionality is good and to be encouraged; removing functionality, if there is no good reason for so doing, is not.

The good reason is reducing clutter.

--
Siep Kroonenberg
Norbert Preining
2018-11-21 10:22:14 UTC
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> But I would still want a better reason than Phil's sense of aesthetics.

I don't think that it is necessary in a GUI too set this.

Norbert

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