Discussion:
Query about 'tar' and some windows/linux scripts
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Pablo Alfonso González Luengo
2018-11-15 19:03:34 UTC
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Hello everyone, a couple of questions (only with the intention of
improving texlive, not criticize):

1. The latest update of Win 10 (October) has installed by default
"tar" and "curl", for future versions of TeXLive, is it possible to
detect the windows version or detect if "tar" is installed in the
system? , to avoid installing it twice :)

2. I know that in the directory
"/texlive/2018/texmf-dist/scripts/texlive" there are proper scripts
and necessary for the operation of "texlive", my queries are as
follows (full texlive installed 2018 in win10pro x64 , without cgywin,
as in fedora 29 x64)

when going through the directory in both systems the outputs are:

% fedora
/usr/local/texlive/2018/texmf-dist/scripts/texlive
[***@fedora texlive] $ ls
allcm.sh fontinst.sh rubibtex.sh texlinks.sh
allneeded.sh kpsetool.sh rumakeindex.sh tlmgrgui.pl
dvi2fax.sh kpsewhere.sh rungs.tlu tlmgr.pl
dvired.sh lua test-tlpdb.tlu uninstall-win32.pl
e2pall.pl mktexlsr.pl texconfig-dialog.sh updmap.pl
fmtutil.pl NEWS texconfig.sh updmap-sys.sh
fmtutil-sys.sh ps2frag.sh texconfig-sys.sh updmap-user.sh
fmtutil-user.sh pslatex.sh texconf.tlu var
% windows 10
/run/media/pablo/driveC/texlive/2018/texmf-dist/scripts/texlive
[***@fedora texlive] $ ls
allcm.sh fontinst.sh rubibtex.sh texlinks.sh
allneeded.sh kpsetool.sh rumakeindex.sh tlmgrgui.pl
dvi2fax.sh kpsewhere.sh rungs.tlu tlmgr.pl
dvired.sh lua test-tlpdb.tlu uninstall-win32.pl
e2pall.pl mktexlsr.pl texconfig-dialog.sh updmap.pl
fmtutil.pl NEWS texconfig.sh updmap-sys.sh
fmtutil-sys.sh ps2frag.sh texconfig-sys.sh updmap-user.sh
fmtutil-user.sh pslatex.sh texconf.tlu var

my questions are the following:

a) Are the ".sh" scripts needed in windows (without using cgywin)?
b) "uninstall-win32.pl" script is necessary in linux? (in windows
perhaps the correct location would be /texlive/2018/tlpkg/installer)
c) What is the correct format of the NEWS file? (It's a mix between
plain text and html apparently)

The best

Pablo
Alois Steindl
2018-11-15 19:57:30 UTC
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Hello,

for me the reason of your question isn't really clear: How much space do
you intend to save? If you sum up all possible deletions, it might be a
few MB. Considering that currently a GB of hard disk space is available
at less than 5 cent, you might be off far better by considering, which
parts of TeXLive your really need. The whole installation fits on a DVD.

The second point is, that there are several versions of e.g. tar around
and it could lead to strange problems, if for example the installers for
TeX-Live require some option, which the system-tar doesn't accept.
(Gnutar is a quite sophisticated version of tar.)

Kind regards

Alois

Am
Reinhard Kotucha
2018-11-16 00:31:09 UTC
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Post by Alois Steindl
The second point is, that there are several versions of e.g. tar
around and it could lead to strange problems, if for example the
installers for TeX-Live require some option, which the system-tar
doesn't accept. (Gnutar is a quite sophisticated version of tar.)
Another point is that TeX Live has to support other versions of
Windows as well. Using programs shipped with TeX Live makes
maintenance much easier. Treating different versions of Windows
differently would add a lot of noise to the scripts. And everything
has to be tested thoroughly.

Regards,
Reinhard
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Pablo Alfonso González Luengo
2018-11-15 20:43:10 UTC
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I understand your point of view, I think using the tools of the
operating system (if they are available) is the best. In the specific
case of "tar" is based on "bsdtar" (http://libarchive.org/) and "curl"
is taken directly from (https://curl.haxx.se/) ... and a couple of
more megas or a couple of megabytes less ... even with the capacity of
current disks ... it always makes a difference
Zdenek Wagner
2018-11-15 21:08:37 UTC
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čt 15. 11. 2018 v 21:44 odesílatel Pablo Alfonso González Luengo <
Post by Pablo Alfonso González Luengo
I understand your point of view, I think using the tools of the
operating system (if they are available) is the best. In the specific
case of "tar" is based on "bsdtar" (http://libarchive.org/) and "curl"
is taken directly from (https://curl.haxx.se/) ... and a couple of
more megas or a couple of megabytes less ... even with the capacity of
current disks ... it always makes a difference
In the past i installed several development tools and each of them
installed ots own curl. I wrote an application requiring curl and it finds
one of them although I am not sure, whether the one found is compatible
with the one used when compiling the application. GNU tar is even more
difficult because its options do not require dashes which need not be the
case of a non-GNU tar. I can imagine that the result of using randomly a
tool of an unknown source will be a set of weird errors. If curl and tar
were supplied by Microsoft as a default part of Windows, it could be under
control. However, a volunteer can write a TL package which will thoroughly
test installed curl and tar and then decide whether TL must install its own
versions or whether the already installed versions are compatible. Hoewver,
such a package can be larger than curl and tar. And now imagine that such a
package finds compatible curl and tar and decides to use it. A user later
finds that a tool containing curl and tar (eg. some compiler) is no longer
needed and just takes disk space, thsu he or she uninstalls it, curl and
tar disappears from the system. TL will then become unupdatable, it will no
longer be able to download its own curl because it needs curl to download
anything but cull will not be available.

Zdeněk Wagner
http://ttsm.icpf.cas.cz/team/wagner.shtml
http://icebearsoft.euweb.cz
Taylor, P
2018-11-15 21:16:08 UTC
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With respect, "a couple of megabytes more or less" really isn't anything more than noise . . .

Philip Taylor.
Pablo Alfonso González Luengo
2018-11-15 21:40:10 UTC
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Post by Taylor, P
With respect, "a couple of megabytes more or less" really isn't anything more than noise . . .
Yes, but, it's a file less than updating ... that's advantage
Post by Taylor, P
@Zdeněk Wagner..."If curl and tar were supplied by Microsoft as a default part of Windows, it could be under control"
To this I mean precisely ... according to
(https://blogs.technet.microsoft.com/virtualization/2017/12/19/tar-and-curl-come-to-windows/)
will now be an integral part of windows, I assume that the developers
of this operating system take them seriously.
On the other hand, if total compatibility between systems is desired,
nowadays it is possible to use WSL and install a reduced version of
"debian" for example and have access to "tar" and "curl" to check
compatibilities.
Anyway, it's just an idea ... (I know curl is a problem, for some
reason TeXLive still uses the classic wget)
Zdenek Wagner
2018-11-15 21:53:44 UTC
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čt 15. 11. 2018 v 22:40 odesílatel Pablo Alfonso González Luengo <
Post by Taylor, P
Post by Taylor, P
With respect, "a couple of megabytes more or less" really isn't anything
more than noise . . .
Yes, but, it's a file less than updating ... that's advantage
Post by Taylor, P
@Zdeněk Wagner..."If curl and tar were supplied by Microsoft as a
default part of Windows, it could be under control"
To this I mean precisely ... according to
(
https://blogs.technet.microsoft.com/virtualization/2017/12/19/tar-and-curl-come-to-windows/
)
will now be an integral part of windows, I assume that the developers
of this operating system take them seriously.
On the other hand, if total compatibility between systems is desired,
nowadays it is possible to use WSL and install a reduced version of
"debian" for example and have access to "tar" and "curl" to check
compatibilities.
Anyway, it's just an idea ... (I know curl is a problem, for some
reason TeXLive still uses the classic wget)
I keep my Windows 7 updated. I have just tried "tar --help" and the system
found GNU tar, not bsdtar. In addition, I have 7zip which should probably
be able to cope with the *.tar files but I have not tried.


Zdeněk Wagner
http://ttsm.icpf.cas.cz/team/wagner.shtml
http://icebearsoft.euweb.cz
Pablo Alfonso González Luengo
2018-11-15 22:08:23 UTC
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I keep my Windows 7 updated. I have just tried "tar --help" and the system found GNU tar, not bsdtar.
"bsdtar" will only be part from this version of windows 10 onwards
In addition, I have 7zip which should probably be able to cope with the *.tar files but I have not tried.
In fact it does, just like the GNU tools installed using mingw.
Karl Berry
2018-11-15 22:38:52 UTC
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detect the windows version or detect if "tar" is installed in the
system? ,

Windows decisions are not up to me, but it sounds undesirable to me.

a) Are the ".sh" scripts needed in windows (without using cgywin)?
b) "uninstall-win32.pl" script is necessary in linux?

In theory no, not necessary, but in practice it is too much trouble for
too little gain to redo the setup for these few old tetex scripts, as
far as I'm concerned. Maybe someday I will feel the urge to clean it up.

c) What is the correct format of the NEWS file? (It's a mix between
plain text and html apparently)

Yes, that is correct :). In the source hierarchy, consider it to be
plain text. Its purpose is to be a place for Norbert/me/whoever to
insert entries as we make newsworthy changes. When they are released to
tlnet, I update http://tug.org/texlive/tlmgr-news.html (a real html
file) with the entries. --karl
Pablo Alfonso González Luengo
2018-11-15 23:09:25 UTC
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Thank you very much for the information, now I have a little clearer things.
regards
Post by Pablo Alfonso González Luengo
detect the windows version or detect if "tar" is installed in the
system? ,
Windows decisions are not up to me, but it sounds undesirable to me.
a) Are the ".sh" scripts needed in windows (without using cgywin)?
b) "uninstall-win32.pl" script is necessary in linux?
In theory no, not necessary, but in practice it is too much trouble for
too little gain to redo the setup for these few old tetex scripts, as
far as I'm concerned. Maybe someday I will feel the urge to clean it up.
c) What is the correct format of the NEWS file? (It's a mix between
plain text and html apparently)
Yes, that is correct :). In the source hierarchy, consider it to be
plain text. Its purpose is to be a place for Norbert/me/whoever to
insert entries as we make newsworthy changes. When they are released to
tlnet, I update http://tug.org/texlive/tlmgr-news.html (a real html
file) with the entries. --karl
Norbert Preining
2018-11-16 00:53:06 UTC
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Hi Pablo,
Post by Pablo Alfonso González Luengo
1. The latest update of Win 10 (October) has installed by default
"tar" and "curl", for future versions of TeXLive, is it possible to
detect the windows version or detect if "tar" is installed in the
system? , to avoid installing it twice :)
The tar on Win10 is useless. Our code at some point actually preferred
the shipped tar, but that ended in tears. It is a bare bone boring
bsdtar that does not support the necessary options.

And even if, we still need to install tar since we might install on Win7
systems where there is no tar available.
Post by Pablo Alfonso González Luengo
2. I know that in the directory
"/texlive/2018/texmf-dist/scripts/texlive" there are proper scripts
and necessary for the operation of "texlive", my queries are as
follows (full texlive installed 2018 in win10pro x64 , without cgywin,
as in fedora 29 x64)
Summing up the scripts size is about less then one photo from your
digital camera or mobile phone ... are you serious about stripping that
down?

No, that is too much work just for the brain damaged Windows system to
which we already have to dedicate a huge amount of special code.
Post by Pablo Alfonso González Luengo
b) "uninstall-win32.pl" script is necessary in linux? (in windows
perhaps the correct location would be /texlive/2018/tlpkg/installer)
As above.

Best

Norbert

--
PREINING Norbert http://www.preining.info
Accelia Inc. + JAIST + TeX Live + Debian Developer
GPG: 0x860CDC13 fp: F7D8 A928 26E3 16A1 9FA0 ACF0 6CAC A448 860C DC13
Pablo Alfonso González Luengo
2018-11-16 01:25:22 UTC
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Post by Norbert Preining
The tar on Win10 is useless. Our code at some point actually preferred
the shipped tar, but that ended in tears. It is a bare bone boring
bsdtar that does not support the necessary options.
And even if, we still need to install tar since we might install on Win7
systems where there is no tar available.
You're right, after writing here review the comparative with GNU tar
Post by Norbert Preining
Summing up the scripts size is about less then one photo from your
digital camera or mobile phone ... are you serious about stripping that
down?
I really thought about using "sh" instead of using "perl" (or Lua) for
everything ...
Post by Norbert Preining
No, that is too much work just for the brain damaged Windows system to
which we already have to dedicate a huge amount of special code.
You're right, it's too much work for just one system ...
Post by Norbert Preining
Post by Pablo Alfonso González Luengo
b) "uninstall-win32.pl" script is necessary in linux? (in windows
perhaps the correct location would be /texlive/2018/tlpkg/installer)
I think I'm one of the few curious users who look "almost" at all
TeXLive directories ...
Best
Pablo
Norbert Preining
2018-11-16 02:11:10 UTC
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Hi Pablo,
Post by Pablo Alfonso González Luengo
I really thought about using "sh" instead of using "perl" (or Lua) for
everything ...
??? On Windows? I don't understand what you want to say - so I guess it
was meant as joke ;-)

Best

Norbert

--
PREINING Norbert http://www.preining.info
Accelia Inc. + JAIST + TeX Live + Debian Developer
GPG: 0x860CDC13 fp: F7D8 A928 26E3 16A1 9FA0 ACF0 6CAC A448 860C DC13
Karl Berry
2018-11-16 23:10:46 UTC
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I think I'm one of the few curious users who look "almost" at all
TeXLive directories ...

One of the few, yes, but it is good to do so! There are so many files
accumulated over so many years ... --best, karl.

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